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[AndersBranderud]

According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on "Pnas" (scientific journal)) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: Netzarim (you will find it with a search engine; “Netzarim Ra’anana Israel”).

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

The most common counter arguments are answered at the blog “bloganders” (domain blogspot).

Anders Branderud

[sheray]

Nice post, I agree. There is a creator and all of us are finished products. Bless you!

[Seigneur Dieu]

Mon cher frère: la paix soit sur vous
Créateur est Dieu Tout-Puissant
Les livres célestes tels que la Torah et la Bible sont les livres révélés aux prophètes de Dieu, qui a ressuscité la création et après la Torah et l'Evangile a été révélé le Coran au Prophète Muhammad paix soit sur lui
Le Coran n'est à l'abri de la corruption et les augmentations et les diminutions
Créateur est Dieu Tout-Puissant qui a tout créé, a excellé
Mon cher frère, si Tmant dans les versets du Livre d'Allah, le Coran se trouve versets qui révèlent nos événements physiques et biologiques et d'autres moyens que les découvertes, qui est mentionnée dans le Coran afin que les scientifiques de l'Ouest a eu à lire le Coran et à en tenir compte afin de conclure constate que toute découverte qu'ils trouvent mentionné dans le Coran Coran et certains d'entre eux le plus sûr
) Qui est entré en islam (
Mon frère Lire le Coran est traduit dans toutes les langues, mais assurez-vous que le Coran fait
Et accepter les salutations

[mikep944]

Its a nice attempt to use science to prove your point, unfortunately, we've heard it all before, and for every scientific fact you can think of to support the existence of a creator, there are 10 that disprove your theory.

I fully agree that the laws of physics state that every occurrence has a cause. However, to claim that the cause of the creation of the universe MUST be an intelligent creator is absurd. The existence of the universe and everything in it is the result of purely random events that neither you or I can even attempt to comprehend.

The existence or idea of god, in my opinion, came about for two reasons:

Firstly, as an easy explanation for things that we could not, at the time, understand (namely the existence of the universe). However, in this day and age, we have alternative explanations (the big bang theory), which, unlike your theory, (despite what you say or think), does not go against every law of physics in the book.
Secondly, to scare the masses into behaving themselves. The idea of heaven and hell was broadcast and promoted purely to scare people into not doing wrong to each other. UNfortunately, and somewhat ironically, religion has had the opposite effect, and it is, without a doubt, the one thing which has killed more people than anything else. Its the greatest and most influencial, politically driven superstion ever created.


Im not trying to put religion down, and im certainly not trying to insult you personally, but I ask the question; Does religion have a place in the modern world, or does it do more harm than good?

[Greatwarrior]

The obvious fact is speaking by itself

[kaycee]

Good thread!
I like this post.

[drchicago]

Nice thread indeed. Mikep944, you are right, the conclusion from the original arguement that there MUST, therefore, be an Intelligent designer of the universe, does not follow, but the conclusion that there MUST NOT be an intelligent creator also does not follow. The only conclusion that logically follows is that there must be a first cause. That cause could be intelligent or not. Also, if that cause was or is intelligent, we, from an infinitely narrow perspective and perception, as humans, may have no way of understanding or grasping what such an intelligence might be like. We may not have the capability (probably do not have the capability) of perceiving or understanding. A better question might be, "What does it matter?" Personally, I believe that the idea of a physical universe is a bit of a misperception and misconception itself. If you look very deeply and logically into it, all we know of the universe is consciousness. Modern Physics itself is now a conglomeration of abstractions, with nothing physical actually there. No matter how hard you reason and try, everything we know about the universe is based in consciousness. And consciousness is NO THING (nothing), ie not physical. What is not physical? Obviously, the spiritual. "And we are all one and life flows on within and without you."